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To Master or not to Master...
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To Master or not to Master... - 7/14/2009 2:20:00 PM
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kdzidoc
Posts: 504
Joined: 11/8/2006
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not bait. Dive master or not, instructor or not? My wife has encouraged me to continue my learning and maybe lead a couple of trips in the future as a dive master or instructor.
I would not do this for a living, as I already make a good wage. ;-)
this would be for fun only and the enjoyment of getting others into a sport that I love.
I would also like to do some technical diving in the future...
Any en... or dis... couragement on doing this from those that have knowledge?
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RE: To Master or not to Master... - 7/14/2009 2:49:19 PM
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RIDiver
Posts: 2781
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If you move on to a professional level, remember that a) you'll have to maintain certification with your agency ($) and liability insurance ($$ as a DM, $$$ as an Instructor). Especially as a group leader, where you could potentially be held liable if something bad happened to a diver on one of your trips.
You'll also likely lose money with any class you take on as a DM - and, if you figure in an hourly wage, it'll be pathetically low as an instructor as well - plus you have the responsibility of putting your name on those C-cards. That said, you can also deduct a lot of diving expenses as long as they're work-related. And, as you pointed out, it can be very rewarding to introduce new students to diving.
I'm pretty sure you were around when I got my DM cert. I was absolutely determined that I was going to go on to become an instructor - my only reason for becoming a DM was on my way to my IE. Somewhere in there, I figured I might be a better instructor for working a few years as a DM. And after working a few years as a DM, I discovered that I no longer had the patience to be an Instructor - nor did I want the responsibility for signing off on students' C-cards. I also found that once I became a DM, I found myself feeling responsible for EVERYONE I dived with - no matter who, no matter what level they were, no matter what the situation was, I was counting butts and worrying if I didn't see someone. It got so that diving wasn't really fun for me anymore.
So when my LDS closed, I stopped working as a DM and I chose not to find another shop to work for. I keep my DM cert current and now that it's been a couple of years since I worked in any capacity as a DM, I've let my insurance go (although there are those who would argue strongly against that!). I may or may not ever go back to being a working DM. I'm glad I did it because it taught me a lot about diving theory and more importantly about myself and what I ultimately wanted out of diving. And that ended up *not* being what I thought I wanted.
Think hard about whether being a working DM or Instructor is something you really want to do. It may well be - if it is, go for it. If not - that's OK, too.
I don't know if that helps at all, but there you have my experience.. for the $0.02 it's worth...
Betsy
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"Life is short Frannie....don't wait too long do something you really want to do" - Fran's Daddy
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All input is appreciated. I am not concerned about the... - 7/14/2009 3:12:53 PM
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kdzidoc
Posts: 504
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It would be more of a hobby kind of thing. And I am already watching every diver on every dive, so I don't think that would change. Thanks for you $0.02. every perspective is worth more than $0.02, maybe 3 or even $0.04
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RE: All input is appreciated. I am not concerned about... - 7/14/2009 3:34:15 PM
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semidiver
Posts: 814
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I went the Master Diver route , I found a lot of " Peyton Place " scenerios at the local dive shops. I'm just not into it as this is my hobby not my profession.
just my .02
Dan
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RE: All input is appreciated. I am not concerned about... - 7/14/2009 3:37:25 PM
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onetime
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I've thought about the same issue many times. I guess I feel like diving is one of the few relaxing things I have in my life and I don't want to mess with what works. Sure there might be a little bit different enjoyment I could get from teaching people to dive or guiding them on dives but then there's that big chance that having to put up with a bunch of nonsense (from shops and students) for something that's supposed to be fun for me just isn't worth the risk.
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I'm not familiar with "Peyton place" kind of ... - 7/14/2009 3:41:51 PM
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kdzidoc
Posts: 504
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but I think I understand what you are talking about.
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RE: To Master or not to Master... - 7/14/2009 3:43:50 PM
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Moonman
Posts: 583
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Contemplated the same things a few years back. Ended up getting the dm and assistant instructor til I finally stopped. RIDiver summed it up rather well I think. It's a lot of maintenance, insurance bs, monetary losses that are tough to swallow, even if you earn a few bucks here and there. Like you, I wasn't in it for the money as my instructor was honest with me up front about that. But still, spending weekends at hotels, meals....all the while "herding cats" for Open Water classes got a bit old.
But on the plus side, I was a part of a very tight group of divers going through the program along with me. Met some tremendous people that I very much enjoy diving with today. In the long run, that was the biggest benefit for me. Learned a ton of course and got a bunch of PADI and DAN cards gathering dust in the garage. But when you don't keep up on the knowledge stuff, teach it to others and constantly upgrade your own learning, it seems to slip away to some extent, at least for me.
My two cents.
Mark
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You have everything to lose and little to gain + - 7/14/2009 3:50:41 PM
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Marc2
Posts: 990
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from being an instructor, unless you have a goal that requires it. I think Betsy did a great job explaining the situation, and I say that as someone who teaches IDC's....
The only reason I got into instructor program was for a future "retirement" venture, but just being an instructor opens you up to potential lawsuits that you must protect yourself from, and it will cost you more than you make so consider it carefully before you take the step. There's already a glut of instructors out there, and many that shouldn't be doing it for various reasons, but that's another story entirely.
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Capt. Marc
PADI IDC Staff Instructor
Underwater Videographer
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DM & Instructor Liability - 7/14/2009 3:59:19 PM
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bobcat
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This is by far the best string of good truthful information I have heard in a while about becoming a dive professional. Liability Liability Liability. Its just not worth it. You probably have too much to loose and anyone can sue you. A 1.0M or 2.0M insurance policy isn't enough coverage. There is a glut of dive instructors in the US and the attrition rate is very high for many reasons. The best and most lucrative way to be a dive instructor is at a College as an employee of the college. Then you can leverage the colleges insurance unbrella policies along with the typical Scuba Instructor policy that PADI and the others typically require. Even the lowest pay level of College Instructor or Lecturer at a University pays more than a typical dive shop.
I contemplated being an Instructor and the liability was the biggest issue followed by the 2K instructor course and related fees.
Someone drops a tank on their foot? Someone slips on the pool deck? Someone carelessly jumps on someone else while entering the pool? Someone doesn't pay to the dive briefing? The seas get choppy and someone hurts themselves on the dive boat ladder. If the private Lawyers don't get you the Insurance company Lawyers will since everyone wants someone else to pay the bill. I could go on and on and on but I think you get the picture.
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RE: I'm not familiar with "Peyton place" kind... - 7/14/2009 3:59:38 PM
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semidiver
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Peyton Place = Soap Opera 
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Life is a highway .....
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RE: You have everything to lose and little to gain + - 7/14/2009 4:00:54 PM
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SeaHawk
Posts: 2320
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Dude,
DM's get all the hot chicks
Worked so good for me I married one :)
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RE: You have everything to lose and little to gain + - 7/14/2009 4:50:41 PM
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Summer7
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HA! I married my advanced instructor...
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RE: You have everything to lose and little to gain + - 7/14/2009 4:54:16 PM
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SeaHawk
Posts: 2320
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I mean I married a hot chick LOL
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RE: DM & Instructor Liability - 7/14/2009 5:37:05 PM
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ARTHASH0345
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Another thought, When I was about twenty-four I was working towards master diver. The last test I took was a very deep dive in a quarry, granted I learned a lot on that dive. One thing that stuck with me is that deep dives are dangerous even with other divers all around you ! There is not much to see at deep depths or are the dives very long. My dive buddy had no interest in deep diving and was looking to find another partner while I was spending all this time seeking master diver. I made the decision to stick with my buddy and we had many years of diving together. Even when his job took him to another state, we would meet at least four times a year to dive together. In my seventy years I have had many quality dives and wouldn't change a minute of it.
There is nothing wrong with trying to advance yourself, but to what end? Do you want to be a professional diver or do you want enjoy yourself while you can ?
Think about it. I wish you the best of luck what ever your goal
< Message edited by ARTHASH0345 -- 7/14/2009 5:39:14 PM >
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RE: You have everything to lose and little to gain + - 7/14/2009 5:38:39 PM
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LarryL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SeaHawk
I mean I married a hot chick LOL
Thanks for clarifying. I was still parsing through how you married a DM that was getting the hot chicks . . .
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RE: You have everything to lose and little to gain + - 7/14/2009 5:44:59 PM
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SeaHawk
Posts: 2320
Joined: 11/8/2006
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In Canada...it is possible
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That's not the full story - 7/14/2009 5:53:57 PM
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brianc
Posts: 2412
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From: California!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SeaHawk
Dude,
DM's get all the hot chicks
Worked so good for me I married one :)
You got the hot chick because you went on the Truth Trip. We haven't seen you since, so the match must be lasting (either that or Canada still won't let her leave).
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Kill the categories!
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RE: That's not the full story - 7/14/2009 6:01:53 PM
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Lunker
Posts: 315
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As a currently "out of work" DM, I too agree with Betsy. One thing I would strongly recommend if you're not already there yet is to get your Rescue Dive cert.
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You're lucky - 7/14/2009 6:06:02 PM
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brianc
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Cuz, I only have time to look at one thread these days and your's won. Why does that make you lucky? It's because I can give you a bit of a different angle on this.
First off, all the financially negative information that others have given you is absolutley true.
Add to that the fact that bad instructors use and treat instructional DM's as day laborers.
Now, on the other side of the coin is my reason for becoming a DM. I never had any interest in becoming an instructor. I really did not want to work with students going into this. What I wanted was to learn more about diving and to meet people with as strong of a passion for diving as I had.
First, I found a good group of instructors who saw the DM training program as the top level of recreational diving instruction, not primarily a path for pushing people into an instructor mill and gaining points for their own career advancement. I made sure that these were hard-core divers, not intructors who never saw the water unless they were being paid to teach a class. That largely meant finding people who did intruction as a hobby because they enjoyed it, not as a means of gaining income.
I did end up working with classes for years because I enjoyed it so much. I also made friends for life who I would trust with my life. I even think I became a better diver.
Now, I'm more interested in my camera, but I am very glad that I did the DM course and would be willing to do a class with the right instructor.
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Kill the categories!
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What Good Brian and RIDiver said + - 7/14/2009 6:26:00 PM
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divebri
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go the tech route - although I enjoyed the class, and I enjoyed doing discover dives in the pool (I had that certification) and I enjoyed working open-water, I didn't enjoy getting hosed by the dive shop or spending money to make them money. Screw that, it gets old real damn quick.
I am finishing up deco procedures and intend, when diving, to go that route more than helping students. You make money and you've got a family. Fuggeddaboudit.
Just my 2 cents, but tech/deco/trimix is probably no more expensive. And it's more fun.
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RE: To Master or not to Master... - 7/14/2009 7:51:56 PM
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Molamola
Posts: 1856
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I wouldn't trade my experiences and knowledge of being an insrtructor for anything. It added to the fabric of my life immensely.
Despite all the stress, liability and everything. Scuba instructors are very special people.
Mm
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There will always be a need for good.... - 7/14/2009 8:48:08 PM
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Capt. Mikey
Posts: 1372
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...instructors. When I got my ticket it was either "diver" or "instructor". I wanted to impress girls, so I went with "instructor" and picked the hardest one I could find. I already had a shitpot full of experience and it was fun. Since the 70's I have probably certified several thousand folks (likely co certed 2000 or more in the last nine years) and I've enjoyed the hell out of it. I still teach a 60 hour course with two days of checkouts even if it is not a university class so I reduce my liability proactively. I can't encourage you enough to go for it.
Mike....always another adventure.....
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Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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RE: To Master or not to Master... - 7/14/2009 8:50:23 PM
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Peregrine
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Given your daytime profession, what are the chances that you would be perceived as having deeper pockets than the typical victim? Now, what are the chances that you would be pursued for damages, no matter how flimsy the causal link between their misfortune and your actions or inaction? Do you like your house?
Not to get political, but the current theme in this country is to "level the playing field" between the successful and the unsuccessful, the fortunate and the unfortunate. Which are you?
It's frustrating to have a desire to grow as an individual and help others only to be put off by asymmetrical risks.
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I love being a divemaster + - 7/14/2009 8:56:18 PM
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Amazz
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But I have a really great gig, imho. Jupiter Dive Center insures me and I get to dive for free when I want. I really don't take advantage of it because I also have my own boat. But I get great discounts on Scubapro gear and don't have to assist with students. I have absolutely no desire to become an instructor so helping with students is not appealing to me at all. Most of the time we have really experienced divers on the boat so it's really easy. Occasionally, I have to give some TLC to new divers and am happy to do so. I decided that if it ever feels like work, it's not worth it. Teaching would feel like work to me. I only feel like it's work if there are 6 ft. seas, half the boat is hurling, there is a south current, a thermalcline of 65 degrees, and 20 ft. of visibility. Now how often do all of those factors occur at the same time? Yes, it has happened.
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RE: I love being a divemaster + - 7/14/2009 9:05:11 PM
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SeaHawk
Posts: 2320
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Angie,
6 ft. seas, half the boat is hurling, there is a south current, a thermalcline of 65 degrees, and 20 ft. of visibility. Now how often do all of those factors occur at the same time?
Sounds like most California dives
Just kidding...the water never gets to 65
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RE: To Master or not to Master... - 7/14/2009 9:13:52 PM
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ncdiver
Posts: 95
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I took every class they offered at Capt Mike's university. I'm a b-school prof as well and he hadn't got there yet. It was fun and the DM and instructor course was OK. In all deference to Mike I find it repetitive and boring to teach scuba. Everyone has their own fun stuff and for me intro scuba ain't it. Give me graduate statistics any day. Plus the liability.
Did seriously enjoy Ray, Bryan, Matt, and Jenn though.
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After 30 years of being... - 7/14/2009 9:22:01 PM
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Capt. Mikey
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...shot at (and, on occasion, hit)...I've found great tranquility in the college classroom....though, now and again I wonder if I'm not walking into an x shaped ambush...;-)....
Mike....boring..that's my life.....
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Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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RE: To Master or not to Master... - 7/14/2009 10:05:56 PM
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Marioreynaud
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I love to learn.... but talking about being a Professional and work for make divers is another story for me. I prefer to maintain Scuba Diving as my hobby and not my work. Another story is going to be the liveaboards that i am going to open in the Mexican Caribean and the Mar de Cortes. In which I planned to dive very often and evaluating the whole operation.
DSAO
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Impossible is nothing!
Mario Pacheco Reynaud
http://web.mac.com/marioreynaud1
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THanks all. This was a good discussion... - 7/15/2009 9:45:55 AM
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kdzidoc
Posts: 504
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I don't like the liability issue, but that is everywhere.
How many divemasters/instructors have been sued here?
I was looking into this as a possible retirement gig in 20 years, so I've got a lot of time to think on it.
I think for now, I will pursue the tech/extended range stuff and see where that goes.
Thanks for all the input.
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RE: THanks all. This was a good discussion... - 7/15/2009 12:49:14 PM
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Molamola
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One of the dive shop owners said she was being sued by a diver who claimed to be bent--- after the person had gone back to the States. She was slightly flabbergasted. Her first knowledge of the problem was the summons was served.
And one poor fellow, very handsome, whom a rabid woman claimed had raped her. Not a chance, but she was a woman scorned. He lost a lot, but didn't go to jail. Scuba instructors do run a very real risk of abused people falling madly infatuated with them just for their professional handling of students, cheerfulness, encouragement and praise.
I've heard of almost no suits, in 25 years.
Mm
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Keeping the Stds High - - 7/15/2009 2:14:37 PM
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bobcat
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Congratualtions on continuing the 60 hour class. Ah yes the good old days. I remember a 10 week course about 3.5 hours once a week followed by the weekend checkout course. You didn't touch the sacred Scuba tank until week # 4 as the first 3 three weeks were spend on skindiving skills and swimming tests. You had the book knowledge of what today is typically DM level. Your dive skills and water confidence was excellent after this type of course. I am glad to hear someone still offers a comprehensive course that procudes competent divers.
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RE: To Master or not to Master... - 7/15/2009 2:49:27 PM
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scorpio_fish
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The process of becoming a DM can be an excellent learning experience and enhance your knowledge and skill.
I quit teaching a while ago, unless someone I know insists I teach them.
Leading trips can be fun or can be the biggest pain (with legal liability). I have several weird stories, plus some others told to me by other trip leaders during the can-you-top-this sessions in the live aboard lounge.
I lead trips now, but only informally amongst friends and acquaintances.
Two points to ponder about leading trips:
1) I, like most people, have a limited number of leisure days during the year. Do you want to allocate some of this finite time to leading trips where you are constantly working as a leader? It is work and it is not always relaxing worry free vacation time. I don't carry a camera when I dive with the group of newbies. I've had to hand it off to go take care of a problem. I'm also not really in to teaching 20 specialty courses while on vacation.
The "compensation" of a free trip wasn't worth it to me personally. I'd rather pay for a trip to a destination of my choosing and be able to do exactly what I want to do during the trip without worrying about making other people happy.
2) Liability. The greater your personal wealth, the greater your cost or risk. People like to do stupid things while diving. People like to sue other people when anything goes wrong. The "standard" coverage amount quoted for Instructors and DMs is $1m. Seems like plenty until you include your ownership value in your business.
There are ways around the personal liability issue, but not without cost.
The first thing that got to me was the inordinate amount of CYA paper work. The second was the pure amount of leisure time I was consuming teaching class. The third thing was the boredom of classroom teaching the same thing over and over. I got to the point where I only enjoyed the pool and OW dives, which only account for a small portion of the entire class time for the instructor.
So, I just kind of quit teaching a couple of EFR certs away from achieving Master Instructor. I now have time for other leisure activities. I'm just a diver now who goes on a few trips a year. We even go on other people's trips now as a low maintenance customers.
Just providing another perspective.
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Well thank you Bobcat.... - 7/15/2009 9:27:08 PM
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Capt. Mikey
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....I think if you're going to do something that might kill you you should probably get as much information as you possibly can. I likely teach more than the students absorb, but over those forty years I have come to understand what I think will be the constructs that they can build upon. It honestly does my heart good to see some of my people from a class I might of taught three or four years ago get on a boat, gear up, go down the lines, come up the lines, do deep stops and long safety stops (every second under water may make one a better diver, so even if you've done your 3 to 5 why not make it 6 to 12, never know what might swim by around here)...and look good doing the dive. I didn't make them what they are, but I figure I helped...I couldn't do that in a three day class...
Mike....never been sued....knocking on wood......
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Printable Version
Depending on the manufacture you can get gear 20-30% below retail. PADI, SSI, NAUI, ETC do a great job in covering their butts, you need to watch yours. In this sue happy world we live in it happens, not very often but it does. LAWYERS SUCK !!! 
enough said. Introducing others and training them into this lifestyle is very rewarding but it does come with a price. You will feel a sense of responsibility for their life every time you dive with them. Depending what type of person you are, you may love this or get tired of it. I have students that will hunt me down from across the US just to dive with me cause it makes them feel safe and others just because they enjoy the dive more. As a professional you most likely have ALOT more dives, great buoyancy control and in some of your normal dive sites can tell if someone moved a rock. Taking a slow dive with them and showing them little things that they may have never seen before just around in a small area means more to some divers than seeing how deep they can go or swimming by everything without even really looking at whats there. One thing we do as dive professionals every year is we all get together for one (Testosterone Trip) *Sorry Ladies just the nickname it got* All of us pros. go on one dive trip. IE this Aug. six of us are taking a quick flight to FL. we have a boat through Amy Slates and we are knocking out 10 Wreck dives in 2.5 days. Last year we went and dove with the Bull sharks. Doing this help us keep sane/insane??? rather than always diving with students. A long story short I'm one of those that loves it. I have a normal day job for $$ as you will never get rich (Money wise) in diving. But I went from an open water diver to DM to one of 4 owners in a brand new dive shop. It is something you will not really know how you feel about it until you do it. But its a big step and I really love all the honesty on this post. I'm not sure if this helped anyone at all, but maybe it gave you a small crumb to chew on.
